"Wire" star will play the god Heimdall in Marvel pic.
Part I: MPTF residents despondent; six have died since closure announced
TheWrap Investigates: Tax returns and an audit contradict the official reasons for shuttering the Motion Picture and Television Foundation's hospital and long-term care facility. Part One.
“This is not something anyone wanted to do.”
The explanation has not passed muster with many nursing-care experts and residents’ families. Hite, the California Association of Health Facilities expert, said it beggared belief that a home could lose $10 million a year when its Medi-Cal reimbursements were well over the state average -- $320 per patient per day, compared with a state average of $223 per day, according to figures compiled by the California HealthCare Foundation. The MPTF receives about 80 per cent of its patient care funding from Medi-Cal.
Hite also explained that reimbursement rates for reputable homes have actually increased since 2006 under a new payment regime negotiated with Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger. The new policy rewards institutions that invest in improved care and punish those that proverbially “water down the orange juice” in an attempt to keep more government money for themselves.
“Most nursing homes are doing quite well, if they are well run,” Hite said.
That analysis appears to be borne out by the MPTF’s own tax returns, which show an increase in “program service revenue including government fees” from $65.4 million in 2006 to $74 million in 2007.
Medi-Cal payments are now under threat because of California’s budget crisis, but most of the threatened cuts have yet to be enacted. A successful lawsuit filed against the state last summer prevented a 10 per cent cut in Medi-Cal payments from going into effect in all areas of care except for hospitals. Although there is now talk of new cuts for 2009, a budget deal is still pending in Sacramento.
The accounts and tax returns suggest the MPTF wasn’t in fact in trouble at all – at least not until very recently. Accounts prepared by PriceWaterhouseCoopers last May and posted on the MPTF’s own website show that in 2007, revenues exceeded expenditures by $16.7 million. The fund’s net assets, meanwhile, grew over the year from $154 million to $168.8 million.
Figures filed with the IRS in November are slightly different but follow the same basic pattern. The MPTF’s Form 990 return – a publicly available document -- shows an excess of $10.6 million in revenue over expenditure for 2007. The fund’s assets are shown to have grown from $158.6 million at the beginning of the year to $171.7 million at the end.
These figures do not, of course, tell us what happened to the MPTF during the Wall Street meltdown in the last four months of 2008. The Mayer-authored press release said the fund was now worth less than $130 million. Katzenberg told Finke much the same – that the fund had lost 30 per cent of its value.
Many people have asked the MPTF if it did not make some catastrophic investment now threatening its existence. Katzenberg personally lost millions to the fraudulent investment advisor Bernard Madoff, but the fund itself has denied any involvement with Madoff. It has given nothing else away about its investments.
Quite what is behind the abrupt closure announcement remains a mystery. In the absence of a widely accepted explanation, rumors are naturally abounding -- everything from involvement in a Madoff-type Ponzi scheme to a Chinatown-style secret land deal.



Comments
Lancome Says
This whole situation is criminal. Katzenberg had no clue about the rank and file when he was at Disney than he has now. And Mancuso, Tillman and Ellis are just as bad. games
Tomm Says
"... many of them in their 80s and 90s."
"... six have died since closure announced"
Um ... I can think of alternative explanations for this.
Julie S. Lantz Says
Everyone is forgetting the most basic of reasons why the Motion Picture Home needs to, must remain and continue to go on - compassion, respect, kindness and morality. Does everything in this town, whether human or otherwise, have to be destroyed? Is there no respect for the past, Hollywood's past, which, by the way holds all those men and women who worked their butts off and were an important part, if not "the" most important part, of movie making? If the Home needs money, give it; if the residents need better medical care, give it; and if the residents need human contact, visits from others, hugs or maybe just a kind word, give it. Really, it's that simple.
Bryan Williams Says
My father faithfully served the industry for over 30 years as one of the many behind the scenes people that make things work. I spent several years working at the studios as well in the late 60's and early 70's. My father did not live long enough to use benefits he accrued from a life time of service. However my 86 year old mother, who has Parkinson's, did reluctantly enter the long-term care section of the MPIH 3 years ago. She was entitled to this care under the rules put in place decades ago.
I am outraged over the decision to arbitrarily and capriciously close this area of the home. It has placed an incredible stress on my mother and the family. In light of the irresponsible and unwarranted decision made by those who likely could care less about the mostly middle class people trying to live out the last few years of their lives, in some comfort, I am hopeful collective legal action is underway. Count me in as wanting to be part of this action. I want accountability now before my mother is pitched out in the street!
Bryan Williams, CEO
Remote-Learner.net
bryan@remote-learner.net
Carter Says
2those who have family involved in this fight they're amazingly LUCKY-it's the ones never have anyone come&visit, no one that checks up on them, no one that ask for an update or have heard the words 'I loveU','I missU', or even 'I will fight forU'. This is heart-breaking-it's policy to notify family of a change of condition/death-but when there is no one-Dr. Tillman & HIS special team have focused on them-those alone in this world with no one to fight making them the FIRST victims... what SHAME!
this is what HURTS the most...
Barbara Says
My Aunt and Uncle are being directly affected by this. My Aunt is one of the people being evicted. My Aunt and Uncle are being betrayed by the board. They moved into the retirement home under the understanding they could be together for the rest of their lives and they would be taken care of for the rest of their lives. Betrayal!!!! It is a very poor ending to a beautiful love story!
Just an idea.... please feel free to run with it......... there is material here for great film making......I'd like to see a director\ producer team create a documentary as a fundraiser to stop this! (and a board of directors re-vote called on the situation, including voting some irresponsible, socially isolated members off the board).
Carter Says
Names of the people responsible for what will happen, "an irreversible decision"...
Dr. David Tillman, President, Chief Executive Officer
MPTF Corp @ Saban Center Office
23388 Mulholland Drive, Mailstop 200
Woodland Hills, 91364
David.Tillman@mptvfund.org
(818) 876-1767-office
(818) 876-1371-fax
Seth Ellis, Vice President, Chief Operating Officer
address-same as above, specify Mailstop 63 for Seth Ellis
Seth.Ellis@mptvfund.org
(818) 876-1043-office
(818) 876-1079-fax
Jan Zlotowicz, Vice President, Human Resources
address-same as above, specify Mailstop 24 for Jan Zlotowicz
Jan.Zlotowicz@mptvfund.org
(818) 876-1549-office
(818) 876-1399-fax
A special thanks to THEWRAP.COM for joining us in the fight to save the home and get some answers for those who deserve to know the truth...
Anonymous Says
In response to Carter.
There is clearly corruption in the system. But they will never fess up to it. Instead there will be a recorded message that will simply put a spin on the entire situation. Yeah, can’t wait to hear that. Insert rolling eyes here.
Bottom line with Tillman is that he’s a Star P-ucker. All he cares about is having his picture taken with Michael and Kathryn or any other celebs that happens to be in camera range. Well, that and his $700.000 a year salary. Concern for the residents? I don’t think so.
Carter, I have the deepest sympathy for what you are going through. To care for these people that, to us, are human beings, real honest to God people, and then see them treated this way has got to be infuriating. You and the others who have worked with the long term patients are Saints. Make no mistake about that.
So for all the times that no one else has said thank you, I’d like to say thank you for all of your care and hard work. There is a place in Heaven for you.
Tiillman, not so much so.
Carter Says
I am directly affected by the closure of the Long-term care units and of the hospital itself... I am a nurse in charge of approx. 20 residents who are sick, fragile, and in need of 24/7 nursing care. Since the announcement, nothing has been the same. I constantly worry for them in hopes that someone can save them (our voices and requests to somehow help with donations and fund-raising have continously gone unheard, Tillman says It's not necessary!)-most residents don't have families, they depend on us to help them just get through the day-at that age, they want to know that everything will be out of routine, they want to feel safe and secure... we hear them cry and withdraw from what they stand to lose... a HOME!!! What the hell is on this man's mind to think he can initiate this with what was started by the people for the people of THE INDUSTRY! He hasn't told the media/board members/big-time contributors what they really need to know-the STAFF and those families know what has happened here-THE BOTTOM IS LINE IS PROFIT!!! They said that On Jan.14 when the announcement was made that there wouldn't be any changes for approx. 60 days-residents and staff have til March 14th- YEAH RIGHT- Changes are being made, slowly but surely, he is turning the HOME into his very own Profit.
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:
If you ever donated into the fund, your check should have been made out directly to DR. DAVID TILLMAN and ADMINSTRATORS!!! We see where all of JODIE FOSTER's millions went to - The new Saban Swimming Center. By the way JODIE, when they cashed your check, did they tell you that it might actually benefit the residentsby replacing beds that actually work or equipement that wasn't made in the freaking 70's, or maybe by getting Tillman out of the office and bringing in someone with a beating heart and warm red blood running through him/her- at least some sign that would indicate that they are HUMAN!!! The next time around with all the new and improve ideas that Dr. Tillman has for the FUTURE OF MOTION PICTURE he should have included to walk right along with us (140+ residents who are expected to be rolled out while still in their beds and 290+ employees who may be pushing them [by Doctor's Orders-BY DR. TILLMAN'S ORDERS that is] to other facilities to ensure a safe and worry-free transition... With the involvement of resident's families and their LAYWERS-I hope that if the worst does happen, we will walk and see David Tillman following us with SHAME knowing he could have done more and taken less!!! SHAME ON YOU!!!
Anonymous Says
I’d like to see a photo retrospective...
Let’s start off with Tillman’s boat...
Cut to a shot of the first resident being removed from long term care...
Next a shot of Tillman’s very expensive car...
Cut to second resident being removed...
Next shot of Tillman’s house....
Cut to third resident being removed....
I think you get where I’m going with this.
Since Tillman and most of the other big Mucky-mucks make over six figures a year (well over, in most cases), perhaps it’s time for them to take a cut in salary. After all, it IS SUPPOSED to be a non profit organization.
But what do I know? Well, I know one of the residents who passed away since this was announced. I wonder if Jeffery thinks her life was worth his latest $1,000 suit.
Anonymous Says
D.Tillman said, "we're losing money from medicare so we have to close the facility" Dah!!! Why on earth lots of nursing homes with lots of medicare patients having no problem? It's because no greedy and professional thief CEO and managerial staffs.
Anonymous Says
Looks like another 6 million dollar fund raiser.......Happens each year....We know the Fund has others fund raisers all year...plus the money we donate on payroll pledge...private donations, individuals leaving their estates....
Come on.....loosing 10 million a year??? RIGHT.....you bring in more than that to keep the Fund going........Got to keep the stock accounts going right Frank Guarrea !!!!
http://www.mptvfund.org/cm/Foundation/Events/The%20Night%20Before/Home.h...
The Night Before
The 7th Annual The Night Before
Saturday, February 21st 2009 at the Beverly Hills Hotel
The entertainment industry’s biggest stars come together every year the night before the Academy Awards to support the Motion Picture & Television Fund. Held on and around the pool at the landmark Beverly Hills Hotel, this annual gathering raised raised over 6 Million Dollars in 2008 to help provide charitable health and community services to entertainment industry people in need.
Hosts for this year’s event included:
Jennifer Aniston
Tanya Haden Black & Jack Black
Kate Capshaw & Steven Spielberg
George Clooney
Luciana & Matt Damon
Cameron Diaz
Leonardo DiCaprio
Susan Downey & Robert Downey Jr.
Dina & Clint Eastwood
Jamie Foxx
Deborra-Lee Furness & Hugh Jackman
Jake Gyllenhaal
Katie Holmes & Tom Cruise
Angelina Jolie & Brad Pitt
Jennifer & Tobey Maguire
Sarah Jessica Parker & Matthew Broderick
Jada Pinkett Smith & Will Smith
Christine Taylor & Ben Stiller
Justin Timberlake
Rita Wilson & Tom Hanks
Reese Witherspoon
Renée Zellweger
Catherine Zeta-Jones & Michael Douglas
Presenting Sponsors: HP, Marilyn and Jeffrey Katzenberg, L’Oréal Paris, Target
For more information, please call us at (818) 876-1936 or email nightbefore@mptvfund.org.
Motion Picture & Television Fund © 2007 ALL RIGHTS RESERVED • (800) 876-8320 • PRIVACY POLICY • CONTACT US • Refer-a-Friend • print page • site map • ELEMENTS
Anonymous Says
Isn't it amazing that when the Studios are screaming that the economic times are so hard (they are showing record box office returns) that they are not only telling the actors they have to take less, but they are telling the old actors (and other industry workers that made them the money they have today) that they have to get out. Go die somewhere else. Amazing. The greed is astounding.
Anonymous Says
My father worked in the motion picture industry for 40 years! He believed in MPTF and patricipated in the payroll deduction system. He loved the industry and always enjoyed his work - special effects process work. It was a "family". My grandfather who worked over 30 years in the industry for MGM got my dad started at MGM in 1960.
My lovely father has been a patient in the long term care facility for over 5 years. He was striken two years after his retirement with several strokes, dementia and Parkinson's. Moving him at this point, could very well kill him. The staff is consistent, helpful, caring and loving to these patients. These are your industry brothers and sisters and MPTF needs to stand behind their promise to "Take Care of Our Own".
In fact, one of our questions to Mr. Tillman was how could he, of all people, being an MD, turn these neediest of all patients over to facilities were he knows they will not receive the care they have at MPTF? As his oath dictates, he should always be on the side of the patient. But he is not - which is why I refuse to address him as Dr. Tillman - because he is not a doctor in his heart! I guess the approximately $700,000 he makes a year (give or take) means more to this old guy than doing the right thing! He is pathetically sad - and through it all, he will probably have to take the fall for what the boards have done to save face. But what goes around comes around and I would be very happy to see him lose his job!
Over the last 10 - 20 years, there seems to have been a corporatization of the industry. This is very sad. Those behind the line need to see what is happening to their industry.
Fortunately, we now have some amazing legal cousel that will more than go head to toe against MPTF. Some heads are really going to start spinning now! We will not give up, we are right, they are wrong, and we will lead MPTF to do the right thing!!
Anonymous Says
I absolutely agree with the comment that Devorah Lynn Dishington made. The people that can save the MPTF home put up a fine front about their "giving back" and "being green", but how about those robust contributions to politicians?
(We never did get a comprehensive list of who bought Obama Inauguration tix for $50,000 dollars a pop...yet they can't give to the Home?)
Yes, they stage big benefits for this and that, in big tents in their backyard. As long as it doesn't take place "in their own backyard"... (figuratively)
It's not only the folks from the MPTF that's treated so badly, or ignored.
What about the actors, writers, and all the creative folk that work for them, currently??? (The WGA Strike went on for so long, due to AMPTP's outrageous insistence on lowering all the creative union's wages, and exploitation. Simple exploitation.)
They starve their own workers; while their wives create a social status, and publicity, by helping the "needy ones"... far enough away, to completely manipulate the PR.
Anonymous Says
In addition to all that has been said, why have the senior execs received bonuses for the last 4 years while middle management had been told that MPTF had not made enough money to give them their bonuses. If the tax returns are correct, I think middle management needs to be compensated. The execs lied. They should now pay.
Also, why are the remaining employees receiving a 20% cut in pay starting very soon? Someone owes a bunch of people some honest answers.
Jeff Burman Says
This is a sad, frustrating story.
One consideration that wasn't developed in this article was the meaning of the MPTF's Medi-Cal reimbursement rate. If it's higher than the average, that doesn't necessarily mean the hospital is drawing enough income to sustain the facility. From what I can gather, the affected facilities are underutilized. This seems to be one of its primary problems. Apparently minimum staffing levels may still work against maintaining this facility.
The other consideration is what everyone else has been saying. Why couldn't there be funds raised to cover these shortfalls? Or why couldn't the facility be restructured to make it more profitable?
Ben Says
THANKS so much to The Wrap for investigating this, and reporting the truth. None of the other trades have even gone near this one. You guys rock!
Devorah Lynne Dishington Says
With all of the "save" this, "save" that is in Hollywood, I find it utterly disturbing that while Celebrities are off crusading in various Countries around the world, NO ONE has taken a look at us, as in 'us' in the United States, where everything is not PERFECT and not everyone is clothed, fed, or housed! Instead, everyone turns a blind eye to what they wish not to admit.
In this case, these are founders of the industry in which we all work today. Yet, instead of taking care of them after all of their years of hard work and earned security, it is being taken away from them, and they are about to cast out on to the streets that they helped to build with their work during the golden age of Hollywood and after. WE MUST TAKE CARE OF OUR OWN!! ~ End of Sentence! I believe that the rain forests are important to the earth, slavery in any Country is a travesty, and AIDS and hunger in Africa and beyond should be abolished; HOWEVER, we must not forget our own people either, for they are no less important than any of the 'causes' I have listed before.
'IF' Hollywood could stand together, especially at a time when it looks as though AFTRA and SAG will implode, or worse, then with all of the NEW Hollywood royalty, so to say, standing together, we could HALT this impending closure. Where are the Auctions, Benefits, Dinners, or otherwise being held to raise money to save MPTF?!?!? The Industry MUST wake up and work together to cease these actions, not only for those folks, who currently inhabit its walls, but also for future generations of Performers who shall require the special services that the MPTF can offer.
PLEASE, Hollywood, STAND UP AGAINST THIS INJUSTICE!!!
>^.,.^<
http://imdb.com/name/nm2554232/
Roy Rogers Oldenkamp Says
Really, a lot of this seems to boil down to a cultural breakdown where Americans in general don' t value intergenerational relationships. I know in my city of West Hollywood, elderly citizens have been evicted from their rent-controlled apartments as the buildings were razed for condos. there have been threee deaths that I know of from the stress and abandonment. Another example of our disregard for our elders. We need a cultural/societal reanalysis of this pattern and find ways to practice a bit more humanism.
Jimmy B. Says
This whole situation is criminal. Katzenberg had no clue about the rank and file when he was at Disney than he has now. And Mancuso, Tillman and Ellis are just as bad.
I have said it from the start - "What is in it for those that have caused this problem"? There are only 3 - 4 people involved in this mess. When are they going to come clean? Are they involved in the development of the property? Under what shell corporation?
I would also beg the attorneys that are taking on this case to ask for the governing documents (as a non - profit org they must follow these documents as it outlines the business and requirements for change - both as a business and Board member requirements, etc.), read the Board meeting minutes for the last several years (as Katzenberg has told us the closing has been under consideration for this time) and speak to the Board members that have recently left the Board. I will guarantee you there is a lot of dirt that will be revealed. And then we can demand removal of these demons.
Hey, one last thought - friends of mine that have been laid off from several Studios have had their time bought out in order to vest for the 20 year requirement to be able to retire at MPTF. They were offered the money or it would be sent to MPTF to buy out their time. They had the money sent to the Fund. Now that there is no chance they can retire there in their waning years, is MPTF going to reimburse these people?
Jim and Barbara McCarthy Says
Very nice article. It is good to get this story out into the public eye as much as possible. We need to understand the whole truth here, and reporters digging in is a time-honored and excellent method to do so. My wife and I have her 92 year old mom at the Motion Picture Home and do not want to see her turned out as if she is just another number in an accounting ledger.
Perhaps the MPTF Board needs to go watch a couple of classic Christmas movies (A Christmas Carol and It's a Wonderful Life) to remind themselves of their obligations and their humanity.
Anonymous Says
Excellent post, although I wonder why you illustrated it with a picture of what looks like Queen Of Angels? (Whatever it is, it's not the MPTF Hospital)
Anonymous Says
It would be encouraging to hear SOMEONE at this years Academy Awards ceremony STEP-UP and make a pitch to save this place.
Phil Stellar Says
My mother also lives in the MP hospital and I receive services from the fund here in NYC. When my own son and I visit her in LA, I tell him that he might also visit me here one day. Guess not.
The staff does an AMAZING job and they too are now looking for work. We must not forget these amazing nurses and staff members who pick up the slack when the residents are all but forgotten and ignored by their own flesh and blood - some of whom live 5 minutes away and can rarely (if ever) find the time to visit their own parent.
Let 5 top Hollywood stars give up 20 % of their salaries from ONE major motion picture and we are funded! Voila!
Anonymous Says
My grandfather spent his last 4 years being cared for at the MP Hospital - the staff and care were wonderful. It is truly disheartening that both my parents who also gave their all to the industry, the IA, their Locals and the Fund are facing the rest of their 80's without the confidence that they will be cared for the same way at the hospital that they helped to build.
As for the rest of us - Hard Times Ahead.
Anonymous Says
the MPTF needs to wake up.
the people there are in need of the continuing wonderful care they are receiving.
i personally think their actions are monsterous, arrogant and greedy. it doesn't entirely surprise me that now we can possibly add deceitful to this list.
thanks for uncovering this information....i hope it can only aid the families and loved ones of those in need.
best,
a concerned and compassionate person {unlike mr. katzenburg}
MPTF Volunteer Says
The large majority of residents at the long term care facility are rank-and-file technicians and artists who worked behind the scenes in the entertainment business while others profited richly.
This facility has a been a point of pride for an industry that can collectively afford to "take care of their own". Volunteers and staff at the Home are so proud to be part of an organization that affords dignity and comfort to those who are at the last stop of a remarkable life. Some of these folks are completely alone in the world, without friends or family beyond those they have met at the Home itself. To remove them at this late date is to cast them adrift when they are least able to cope with it.
Beyond research into the financial back story, steps must be taken to locate additional and consistent funds to provide management with an alternative. I urge union and guild members to make their feelings known to their leadership. Employees of studios, broadcasters, distributors and all their vendors can express their concern to management.
Any one of us could end up just like the folks I see at the MPTF. Except without the long term care facility, we will end up somewhere else.
I want to thank Mr. Gumbel and Ms. Finke for continuing to report on this very distressing situation.
Virtuakd Says
I have lived in the neighborhood of and driven past the MPTF property for the past six years. During that time, I have seen multiple large-scale construction projects including the building of a beautiful new residential facility. With names on the sides of these buildings like Spielberg, Wasserman and Saban it seems absolutely incredible to me that any of these moguls, their families and their peers would let this injustice get swept under the rug. THIS CANNOT AND MUST NOT BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN!
--- An Interested Party ---
Verne Langdon Says
For all my years in the business, I never trusted the fund, and carried (to this day still do ( my own insurance. To Mark Howell and his co-workers I say, "the last 10 years?" Fellers, Hollywood NEVER gave a crap for its own from day one. Remember Bela Lugosi, the original Dracula? Bela, along with Boris Karloff and a handful of others, were on the founding board that created the Motion Picture Relief Fund, 'way back when. Bela paid into the fund every film he made, yet in 1956 when he was committed to the county for drug addiction treatment, it was none other than the Fund whioch turned it's collective backs on his request for aid. Seems he hadn't made a film in 3 years, therefore cancelling out his eligibity for assistance. From a fund like this you expect anything but what they're pulling now? Wake up and smell the coffee, friends. That's Hollywood, then and now.
- Verne Langdon
Former member of Makeup Artists and Hair Stylists Local 706
We Toss Out Our Own Says
There is a website that has up to date information on the evictions. Suffice to say, the board is in an uproar and behaving not unlike the Keystone Cops. On Friday, security people were armed with photos of Erin Brockovich on rumors that she was going to visit the facility. Their mission? Apprehend and show her the door!
Threat levels are being raised as we speak! I hope they have time to defend themselves against the public and publicity backlash that articles like this will result in.
Please check out www.savingthelivesofourown.org - sign the Guestbook, leave a blog, or join us in this important cause.
Mark Edward Howell Says
Well I sure wish I could be there. I would tell them to go F- themselves. They are cold and unsure about what life is really about.
I think the motive for closing this home (and throwing our elderly out who paved the way for us all) is GREET and DECEIT. That is all Hollywood has been in the last 10 years. Nothing more. They do not care and have no heart as long as THEY get and save their last penny.
GOD BLESS BOTH SIDES and I hope they do work something out to better each side. PEACE and LOL
GOD BLESS
Mark Edward Howell
www.markedwardhowell.com
www.lmtalent.com
PUBLICIST - DON WALL
prom/manager - Hollywood Talent Man./Steve Hoffman
local manager - Marcus Stephenson
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1211286
www.dfwactors.com
www.myspace.com/marktheactor
Revolution9 Says
There are two sides to this story. The right side and the wrong side. The families who are fighting tooth and nail to keep their loved ones in place are clearly on the right side. As the layers peel away revealing the true intentions of the MPTF board, it becomes clear that a price was put on their heads.
Let's hope that the MPTF wakes up before we lose any more of these very special industry people.
Where are the A-listers? The families need a champion that can stand up to the board and tell them to go f - themselves. There are good people on this board that could not have bought into this charade. Where are their voices in this?
As this turns into a contentious battle, how many others are we going to lose? The rewards for serving the industry and living a long, productive life seem to be detachment, anxiety, and anguish for those at the Motion Picture Home.
There's an answer that will satisfy all out there. The board has to be willing to work with the families to reach that answer.
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