When Elizabeth Meriwether devoured all six episodes of the “Dying for Sex” podcast in one sitting, she fell in love with its unfiltered honesty. Released by Wondery in early 2020, the podcast candidly chronicled Molly Kochan’s sexual awakening after being diagnosed with Stage IV metastatic breast cancer. Her best friend, Nikki Boyer, was by her side for all the highs and lows.
“I was so taken by the tone of it, how funny it was in the midst of some of the worst things that can happen to a person, and the friendship at the heart of it,” Meriwether said. The Emmy-nominated creator of “The Dropout” recruited Kim Rosenstock, whom she’d worked with on Fox’s “New Girl.” “We’ve all seen stories about people who are sick and being taken care of, but something about [Kochan] healing while dying felt like this incredible, incongruous thing,” Rosenstock said.
Soon the FX limited series — with Michelle Williams at the top of the call sheet — became a reality.
Like Meriwether and Rosenstock, Williams was moved by Kochan’s story and her bond with Boyer. Despite having only a few scripts in hand, the Emmy-winning, five-time Oscar-nominated actress felt Kochan deep in her bones and signed on to star and executive produce. “Ultimately what I realized I was drawn to was the bravery,” Williams said. “And [I asked] myself, would I have this bravery if I was given a diagnosis? Could I be so bold and original with how I wanted to spend the time that I had left?”
Molly is a character who toggles between tragedy and comedy, often within the same scene. Michelle is one of the best actors at toeing that line. Was she always your first choice?
KIM ROSENSTOCK I don’t think we ever dreamed we would get Michelle Williams, to be honest.
ELIZABETH MERIWETHER I didn’t even fully know that she was real. I was like, Oh, she’s an acting angel that exists in this acting alternate universe. (Laughs) Yes, she was our first choice. When she met with us [over Zoom in 2021], it was immediately clear that it had gotten under her skin — the way she talked about Molly, the way she talked about the podcast, the way she talked about her voice. It was deep. Then she got pregnant and had a baby, and she couldn’t do it anymore. But we kept moving forward because we still had a fair number of scripts to write.
Michelle, what made you return to this role?
MICHELLE WILLIAMS We were in constant communication. We were really involved in minutiae at that point, talking scene by scene and about the work ahead. I got pregnant and we briefly considered the possibility of using digital technology to erase my stomach, which would have made blocking the sex scenes so interesting. So many things [would have] been impossible. After I went through a postpartum period, I called my agents and asked what had happened to the show. I was so relieved that it was still a possibility for me.
Molly has unique sexual experiences in the series, some more outrageous than others — namely, the guy dressed in the dog onesie and the guy whose fetish is to get peed on. What did you want to reveal about her through these sexcapades?
WILLIAMS Her lack of judgment. That she was curious, for herself and for others, what might feel good. And so I love this journey that she goes on, where she meets these men in situations with incredible openness and radical acceptance of who they are and what their bodies might be inclined toward, as a way to discover what feels good for her. The world is so full of judgment, and to be able to close a door and offer somebody compassion, acceptance, stimulation and pleasure, that’s a beautiful and healing experience to give to another person.
Was there an account of Molly’s from the podcast that felt too racy to memorialize?
ROSENSTOCK If anything, we wish we could have included more. There was never anything that we felt like we wouldn’t want to show. It was more, how do we show this in a way that feels honest and respectful, and make sure that the sex is never the joke — that we’re never making fun of what people like to do, that the humor is coming from the characters?
MERIWETHER If the scene didn’t teach her something, then we didn’t include it. We had these amazingly brave guest actors. We had Michelle, we had great directors and an intimacy coordinator, and we tried to keep what was alive in the podcast alive on set too.
Michelle, did you ever have a moment where you thought, I don’t know if I can pull this scene off?
WILLIAMS No, because the spirit that we were going forward in felt so crucial and so present, I just wanted more. She’s trying to get to the point of something. All these encounters along the way are taking her to the enlightenment that she’s seeking with the amount of time she has left. They’re all teachers guiding her and rooting for her and helping her find this last stop on the train.
“Dying for Sex,” if anything, was Molly and Nikki’s love story. To me, that was the central relationship throughout these eight episodes.
MERIWETHER For us, the love story between Nikki and Molly was the central [love story] the entire time. We start with them, we end with that. Without the friendship of Nikki, Molly wouldn’t have had that safe home base to keep coming back to that allows her to keep launching further and further out into this dark, maybe scary territory, risky territory [of] dealing with her own trauma [and] having these sexual adventures. But the fact that she knows she can keep coming back to Nikki [and] has Nikki’s love and support is what allows her to continue expanding in such an amazing way. It was always the love story between Nikki and Molly. And we were so lucky to have the incredible Jenny Slate playing Nikki, another huge gift to us. I can’t picture anyone else playing that part, except for Jenny.
WILLIAMS That’s such a beautiful way to think of it. It’s their love for each other — and it goes in both directions — that allows them to do their own difficult, brave things because they have a soft place to land.
Michelle, how did you bring that friendship to life with Jenny?
WILLIAMS It feels like one big run-on sentence from the moment that we met, aided and abetted by this flawless piece of material and the spirit of the real-life Nikki and Molly coursing through us. The truth is, [Jenny] is moving to Brooklyn, so there were love stories on-screen and off-screen, and this one has a very happy ending.
I found myself laughing a lot in the first half, but I wasn’t prepared to cry as much as I did in the final episodes. How did you calibrate the roller coaster of emotions that Molly goes through?
ROSENSTOCK We wanted to have the feeling at the end of the podcast where you’re cracked open, you’re thinking about your whole life and you’re crying, but you’re still hopeful, happy and laughing. We stopped thinking about it in terms of genre or tone, and it was: What feels like the most truthful, honest thing in this moment? What does the story need? What does the character need? And not: Is it comedy? Is it drama? Let’s not ask ourselves what the rules are; let’s just do what feels right.
WILLIAMS It was all on the page, baby. When you have writing like this, it’s easy to learn. Sometimes you’re looking at your lines and you’re like, I can’t get it in, it won’t go in. And it’s because something rings untrue. I’m trying not to make so many jokes about putting things in your mouth, but that’s really the feeling! [Laughs]
Is there a part of Michelle’s performance that affected you the most?
MERIWETHER The scene [in Episode 5] with Sissy [Spacek, who plays Molly’s mother] where she can’t remember the words because of her “chemo brain” was particularly extraordinary. In Episode 3, her scene in the hospital bed where she’s blaming her body for getting [sicker]. I couldn’t believe how quickly and easily she navigated the complicated feelings in the scene and then also managed to turn on a dime and make it so funny.
ROSENSTOCK There was a moment when Michelle was on the bathroom floor. I texted Liz, “Somehow, this is breaking my heart watching Michelle’s foot moving up and down while she’s calling her husband.” There’s not a moment that isn’t fascinating and interesting and doing 800 things at once. That’s just what Michelle does.
Speaking of Episode 5, that was a pivotal moment for Molly and her mother, Gail, where they finally acknowledged past trauma and the abuse Molly endured. It felt like a weight, metaphorically, was lifted. Firstly, how did you land Sissy Spacek and how important was it to get that dynamic right?
MERIWETHER It was exactly the same as Michelle. It was like, “Sissy Spacek is interested,” and we were like, “What?” Then she got on the phone and she was already in it. She was talking about it from a place where it had already gotten into her and it was speaking to her and it was questions that you get once you’re filming. She’s also somebody who doesn’t normally work with people that she hasn’t worked with a million [times]. She’s a legend. It was unreal.
WILLIAMS It was astonishing when I heard her name and I think a part of me will always stay locked in time in that beautiful scene that I got to play with her. I left a little piece of myself back there with her as something that I can revisit because to lock eyes with her, there’s such a deepening experience for me. I’m so grateful for it and I cannot believe that it happened.
You know, when Liz, Kim and myself first started talking about this [show], I knew that the three of us liked it but it is such a particular flavor that I wasn’t sure it was going to be for everyone. And I could never have imagined the caliber of people that would come on board. When Rob [Delaney] said yes to playing somebody called Neighbor Guy. When Sissy, when Jenny [said yes], I thought, oh, maybe it’s not just the three of us being weird. This must be as special as I think it is because these are performers with such skill and such depth, and they want to come attempt this. OK, this is a real thing.
Michelle, is there a scene you were personally blown away by?
WILLIAMS It was every single scene. I cannot believe I get to do this. I cannot believe that they created this tension between drama and comedy with this backbone of truth. How are they pulling this off script after script after script? And these were also being written while we were shooting. Everything thrilled me to pick up [the scripts] and go to work every day.
What have you taken away from making this show?
MERIWETHER So much. An appreciation of how hard people have to fight for health and happiness, and gratitude for the friendships that have shaped my life.
WILLIAMS Being open and present to hearing how people are responding to this and how they relate to it, and their personal histories that they bring to it. I’m so moved to be in this position to see firsthand how it is resonating and what it might mean to somebody.
ROSENSTOCK We’re all in this day-to-day grind, but if you can step back for one second and ask yourself, Who are the people that fill you with joy and make you feel like the best version of yourself? How can you be around those people a little bit more? It is amazing to see how Molly, who [lived] this, and Nikki, who helped her document it, could have such a giant ripple effect. It’s very inspiring and it gives me hope.
A version of this story first ran in the Limited Series & TV Movies issue of TheWrap’s awards magazine.
Read more from the Limited Series & TV Movies issue here.
